It would be so easy to let go of God, most of the world has, they just don't even realize that they have.... and yet, for me, it is the most impossible thing to do.
I am sure that without God in my life, I would not be here today.
Hi Lynn, the reason we cannot let go is because God won't let go.
Why is that? (that it's so hard) Just curious.
@Crystalinne - We can't know the path not taken. I imagine if my life had been different there would be some things that are better and some that are worse. Why do you say you wouldn't be here?
@HUMOR_ME_NOW - If I were a more devout believer who had stopped believing that would probably seem pretty insulting.
Actually, all of this is about God, not us. We are tempted to think of God as another human friend instead of the Almighty Sovereign God, though we may think it was our idea alone to come to God in the first place, and therefore could also be our prerogative to walk away. (In fact, I've heard plenty of so-called exChristians say that they've done that very thing. God has a purpose in saving people, a purpose that cannot be thwarted of disposed of by those He calls. To believe in God, we must have a faith and a will to come to Him that we do not possess in our fallen state. When we receive that faith in Christ, the barrier of sin that was there is put on Christ in our behalf and God is then able to create a new creature in Christ - one who can know and have fellowship with God. That new creation does not dissipate or dwindle away. We shall never perish, He affirms.
If we ignore our fellowship with Him and with His children, we can become deadened to His voice (but not dead) and are outwardly out of fellowship. The work that God is doing in us goes on even though we are not active participants (at least not purposely or consciously). Yes that state is terrible for those who have known Him and one may very well feel all alone because there is no real fellowship with the enemies of God either.
I cannot entertain the thought that I would ignore the gifts and calling of God for any period of time. There are great rewards and a direction and purpose throughout life and into eternity for those who trust in Him.
@agnophilo - "Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them." ... He is manifest in me.
@quest4god@revelife - Hi Norm, You seem to have totally gotten the thing that I was trying to say. (((hugs))) Blessings to you. Frank is correct too... He[the Lord] has His hold on me.
@JstNotherDay -This problem with comment boxes seems to be everywhere. I am trying to type in the user name of the person(s) I am directing the comment to because of this problem. I'm not sure if this will show up in your feed or not.
Your reply blessed me, not that I didn't already know of your faith, but because your reply is such a precious testimony.
I'm thankful that He never lost His grip on me! I wouldn't be here today if He had. God is faithful.
@quest4god@revelife - When evaluating an idea we must also be careful to evaluate whether it can even be evaluated. Your claims about what "true" faith feels like are subjective, and you cannot know what someone else feels in their heart or how sincerely they believe something. And unless you explain how to objectively detect "true" faith your claim that no one who has it ever loses it cannot be evaluated. If you are deciding that anyone who stops believing never believed to begin with, then you're deciding something is true that is not knowable by anyone but the person you are accusing of being a weak believer.
I've known people who were very genuine and devout and passionate about god and faith and scripture who stopped believing. I don't think they were faking, but that's just my opinion. It's no more verifiable than yours.
Also you might want to google "no true scotsman".
@JstNotherDay - How exactly? If you don't mind me asking. And quest4god@revelife left you a comment but couldn't tag you.
@quest4god@revelife - Clicking "reply" under their comment puts the code in the comment to notify them.
@RaZeHeLL - Why do you say that (that you wouldn't be here today)?
@agnophilo - Hi agnophilo, I don't mind you asking but I can only explain the way that I have explained. Knowing God was made manifest in me and I have been very much aware since I was a young child. Blessings to you friend.
This "comment box not working?" has not been so widespread as it is right now, but I'll try by tagging you here: @agnophilo. I still had do delete all the extraneous material and leave only your username. It is plumb crazy (or is it plum crazy?).
The faith that I speak of which is spoken of in Ephesians 2:8 is not a human-generated faith. In speaking of a faith that a believer cannot lose, it refers to the faith that was given as a gift by God and is no reflection on the character or strength of belief. It is one of those gifts of which the Bible says are without repentance on God's part. He does not take it back nor do we own it as something we can dispose of at will. I am not "putting down" those who no longer feel that they believe or saying that they never really did believe (although that could be a possibility).
Being a believer is making no claim to righteousness of one's own - in fact, it is an admission of the total enmity of one's soul with God apart from His redemption of us in Christ. Anyone who claims otherwise is making a false claim to righteousness or goodness for all have sinned.
The definition of the pertinent terms is God's definition as delineated in the scriptures.
@quest4god@revelife - I've never had any problems tagging people - maybe you're putting your response in the code generated by hitting reply and messing it up? As to "true" faith being a gift from god etc, I don't know how you can know that. I don't know how you could know something you feel inside of you came from god, let alone know anything about what other people feel or where it comes from. As for emnity to your soul, this sounds like you are carving your inner self into two halves, the parts you see as bad and the parts you see as good and calling the bad parts you and the good parts god. Everyone has an inner tug of war and has different parts inside of themselves competing for our actions, it's how the mind works. Not everyone personifies those parts or calls them god, the devil etc. Ironically secular people make the same error when they take the noblest and best parts of ourselves and call that our humanity and call the rest inhuman. All of it is a part of our nature, good and bad. The part of our mind we seem to control just acts as referee.
@agnophilo - Greetings agnophilo, All things of the Spirit, come through the Spirit.
@JstNotherDay - That's like saying "by the power of voodoo", it's just words. I wanted to understand what you mean from your perspective, what you perceive as being god manifest in you.
@agnophilo - Hi agnophilo, Let me put it this way, since I know no other way... Why were you born? Have you ever had this thought? Do you believe in God? Have you pondered where it all came from? Have you sought the answers to why this is all here and how a Creator could have simply existed to create it? Have you pondered these things?
Here again, the comment box doesn't work; so I click on "comment box not working?" The result is that I can type in the comment box, but it isn't in the same font until I click "Submit." The other problem is that it won't let me tag the person I'm addressing. It's not the same on everyone's site. I am attributing this problem to the Xanga problems right now, but it is maddening. You seem not to have that problem here?
@quest4god%40revelife - Hi Norm, I've encountered a few problems but not that one. Some people's sites won't let you edit, or recommend, comments. I've not changed any settings on my site that I know of. I have been getting your messages. Sorry, I meant to tell you that yesterday. Take care and blessings to you, Lynn
@JstNotherDay - "Hi agnophilo, Let me put it this way, since I know no other way..."
Alrighty.
"Why were you born? Have you ever had this thought?"
I don't make the assumption that there's someone or something causing and directing human activity, so my answer would be a mechanical answer - my parents had sex. I could try to list physical events as we understand them going back billions of years that lead to that, but that's the only real answer I can give that I know to be true. A theist looks at life and the universe as artifacts, something built, like a hammer or a screwdriver, and sees it's purpose as coming from the person who built/uses that artifact, the same way a hammer or screwdriver has no purpose on it's own and only has purpose through us. But a hammer or screwdriver is not sentient, it can't love or hate or think or have opinions or beliefs or wonder or act creatively - if it did it wouldn't need us to give it meaning and a purpose. So a theist says "we exist, why did god make us?" An existentialist who does not assume there's a creator and simply tries to understand the world says "we exist, now what? How should we treat each other, what is true, what is the best way to live, the best type of society etc, etc?" You assume there's a creator, I don't.
"Do you believe in God?"
Nope. There could be a god or creator of some kind, but I've never found a compelling reason (logical or empirical) to believe there is.
"Have you pondered where it all came from?"
Of course. I don't have a sound answer though. To my knowledge no one does. There are thousands of claims about it, but that's like claiming a thousand different people killed someone, that doesn't really help much.
"Have you sought the answers to why this is all here and how a Creator could have simply existed to create it? Have you pondered these things?"
Of course. And of course if something's existence implies a creator and something being complex and machine-like implies an intelligent designer, then god needs a god because any god would exist and be complex. So god needs a god, and god's god needs a god and so on into infinity. I cannot accept that answer, can you?
When people didn't understand lightning they believed in zeus and thor and this made them feel like they understood what was going on. Now people don't understand the big bang and abiogenesis and quantum mechanics so they believe in yahweh and allah and vishnu and this makes them feel like they understand what's going on. Have you ever wondered if we're just doing the same thing our ancestors did?
@quest4god@revelife - Unfortunately with xanga's eminent demise it's probably not worth contacting customer support to fix : (
@agnophilo - You may be right. All I can say is that I have this inner knowing. Whether it is real or whether it is false, I can only say that it has always been there for me. Note: It is only recently that I discovered that it is written about in the scriptures. I found that every answer, to every thing, that I ever needed to know, is in the scriptures. It made me ask; 'Where has this been all my life?'.
" Have you ever wondered if we're just doing the same thing our ancestors did?" My thought when I read this was, "Of course we are". I believe that ever since we were separated from the Creator we have been trying to find our way back... to understand how, and where, we got lost... knowing that we have lost something.
@JstNotherDay - "You may be right. All I can say is that I have this inner knowing. Whether it is real or whether it is false, I can only say that it has always been there for me."
I experienced something similar, but it hasn't always been there. It was put there by your upbringing. It's basic human psychology, as a child you develop the ability to communicate and learn before you develop the ability to think critically, to question things you are told - as a result there's a period when you just blindly accept everything someone tells you, especially your parents. So what you are exposed to in that period of your development gets filed away in the "this is 100% true" folder in the filing cabinet of your mind, so to speak. If you had been exposed to racist beliefs during that period you would "just know" that blacks are lazy or jews are not to be trusted or whatever the prejudice is. And it would be similarly hard to let go of those ideas (if not impossible). This is the psychology of indoctrination. It took me years of questioning for it to even occur to me that there might not be a god, let alone to seriously consider the possibility. People raised in islam have a deep inner knowing that the quran is the word of god. The same is true of every religion. This isn't knowledge, terms like knowledge or fact refer to things that can be verified, proven, demonstrated to others objectively. I know the earth is round, not because I really really think it is, but because I can prove it a number of ways. I can show you it's round via experiment and observation. That is what makes it knowledge. Subjective feelings and beliefs are the opposite of objective knowledge.
"Note: It is only recently that I discovered that it is written about in the scriptures. I found that every answer, to every thing, that I ever needed to know, is in the scriptures. It made me ask; 'Where has this been all my life?'."
You might want to study other religions and philosophies, the teachings of the bible very closely mirror the teachings of many other cultures, and much of the bible appears to have originated from earlier writings. The story of the flood for instance mirrors the epic of gilgamesh which is earlier than the old testament. The golden rule (do to others what you would have them do to you) was stated many times by people who were never exposed to the bible, the earliest written version of it that survives to this day is in the code of hammurabi, a series of ancient babylonian laws pre-dating the earliest books of the old testament by over a thousand years. The code of hammurabi also includes things like "an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth" etc and appears to be a secular template for the ethics that would later make up the old testament. The story of adam and eve very closely mirrors other religions, for instance according to some versions of greek mythology zeus, mightiest of the gods (yahweh is required to be worshiped above all other gods in scripture, he is not said to actually be the only god) created the first woman, pandora, who was given an object containing all the evils of the world and tempted into opening it, thus allowing sin and pain and vice to enter the world. Sound familiar? The bible does contain profound and beautiful passages (and horrible and brutal, primitive passages). But neither seem to me to be out of the ordinary, there is profundity and beauty in most religious texts. It's what draws people to them in the first place. Haven't you ever read a passage that seemed profound or beautiful from another source?
["Have you ever wondered if we're just doing the same thing our ancestors did?"]
"My thought when I read this was, "Of course we are". I believe that ever since we were separated from the Creator we have been trying to find our way back... to understand how, and where, we got lost... knowing that we have lost something."
You are kind of blowing off what I said here. I gave an example of people feeling like they understood something when they had a false idea about it and asked if you have ever thought we might be doing that. I asked "do you think we could be doing X" and you said "of course we're doing Y!"
@agnophilo - Hi agnophilo, I might agree with you except that I did not receive any serious teaching about God as a child from my parents. To this day my family does not understand my affinity for God. I have been studying all the other religions and I agree with you, they are all interconnected. However I am not speaking of religion. I am speaking of relationship with God and Holy Spirit. Religion is born out of this need to know our Creator... the inner knowing of which I speak... and inner seeking. "Seek and you shall find", "Knock and the door will be opened"... or in this case the eyes which were once blind will see. I don't understand that last bit. I agree that 'we are just doing the same thing our ancestors did'.
@JstNotherDay - "Hi agnophilo, I might agree with you except that I did not receive any serious teaching about God as a child from my parents."
Nor did I. But it still took years to undo. Just being exposed to something strongly biases you toward it and makes it hard to believe anything different. Do you think racist people are given daily stereotype drills by their parents? They are generally casually exposed to these concepts, but they usually stay with them for a lifetime as a result. Especially if they use those ideas to meet other emotional needs, like to feel better about themselves by feeling superior to others etc. Then good luck trying to convince them their beliefs are wrong. It's the same with many religious concepts, once people start using the idea of god to feel loved or safe or allay their fear of death or any of a hundred other things they cling to it and freak out if someone even suggests it's not absolutely true.
"To this day my family does not understand my affinity for God."
You were exposed to it as a kid though, right?
"I have been studying all the other religions and I agree with you, they are all interconnected."
Many cultures have blended together and influenced each other but elements like the golden rule are universal I think not because x religion has influenced y religion, but because of the commonality in human nature. It's just a common sense conclusion that people have reached over and over and over again.
"However I am not speaking of religion. I am speaking of relationship with God and Holy Spirit."
You think that's somehow unique to your religion? Hinduism stresses a personal relationship with their deities, and some sects believe in household gods they feel connected to. Other cultures engage in ancestor worship and feel they get messages or guidance from the spirits of their ancestors. My theory is that all of these people are just personifying some aspect or aspects of their unconscious mind. If you poke around in your inner self you will find many parts of you that think and feel different ways - some of them you feel in control of, some of them feel like something else is in control. We call this the unconscious mind and today we study it as a phenomenon - but if you believe in a devil that tempts people and demons that make people violent, spirits that give people guidance or a god that does all kinds of things, the mind is a veritable smorgasbord of things to point to and call a separate being. This is made more defensible by the fact that neurology is one of the last great frontiers in terrestrial science so claims about subjective feelings are hard to objectively debunk. But you can actually induce "spiritual" experiences medically now, both chemically and by influencing the brain with EM fields. I can elaborate if you like.
"Religion is born out of this need to know our Creator... the inner knowing of which I speak... and inner seeking. "Seek and you shall find", "Knock and the door will be opened"... or in this case the eyes which were once blind will see."
I think religion is born out of a lot of things - a desire to control people, a desire to understand the world, a need for a sense of security, need to feel loved etc. I don't feel a need to connect to a creator at all, any more than you feel the need to connect to bigfoot. I feel a need to connect, but that's the herd instinct. We don't feel complete unless we're part of a group, probably the same way a fish doesn't feel good out of it's school or a bird out of it's flock. And the same way our basic survival instincts can be triggered by abstract ideas (ie we can be afraid of something abstract like global warming or communism, not just animals with pointy teeth) we can similarly feel profound emotions from things like fictional stories, art, music, philosophy and beliefs. As sam harris pointed out if you believe your child has been abducted you will feel the torrent of emotion that will unleash, even if it turns out not to be true. The belief, the perception, unleashes the feelings associated with it. The belief does not have to be accurate to do so. So people can feel profound things about god and still just be talking to themselves.
"I agree that 'we are just doing the same thing our ancestors did'."
Believing a wrong thing that gives us no new information out of ignorance?
@agnophilo - Hi agnophilo, Unlike you, I don't believe that we are "believing a wrong thing", but rather that we are seeking to solve a great mystery... a puzzle to which we do not hold all the pieces so we can't see the whole picture. I have faith. I believe. I feel it in my heart and in my soul. There are things in my nature... in the way God formed me and made me... I am His. There are also events in my life which have heightened my awareness of the Lord. Yes, He lives in me. Additionally, there is no way to deny the superior Wisdom of Yeshua. 'There are no coincidences'... I see this... the blinders are off my eyes. God and the Holy Spirit... even if it is as you describe, the One who lives in me, so to you it would seem that I am only talking to myself... speaks to me when I am still and open myself to listen. I compare this to the experience of the Buddhist when they reach the 'blue light' awareness... that connection to the higher self... the higher Being. I know of others who understand this, as they have experienced it. I accept that you have not, and will not, because you do not seek it. I accept that you do not believe. The Lord has said, 'I know those who are Mine, and they know Me'. I know Him. Peace and blessings to you.
@JstNotherDay - "Hi agnophilo, Unlike you, I don't believe that we are "believing a wrong thing",
You said you did a minute ago, which is why I was confused. You seemed to not want to hear what I was saying.
"but rather that we are seeking to solve a great mystery... a puzzle to which we do not hold all the pieces so we can't see the whole picture."
I too am trying to solve that puzzle - but I refuse to invent the pieces I don't have.
"I have faith. I believe. I feel it in my heart and in my soul. There are things in my nature... in the way God formed me and made me... I am His. There are also events in my life which have heightened my awareness of the Lord."
Circular reasoning. You interpret those events through the lens of the assumption of a personal god and then conclude based on them that there is therefore a personal god. It would be like if I believed that ghosts made people behave violently and when someone asked how do I know this I said "I've seen ghosts influencing people (ie every act of violence they've ever witnessed) all my life, how can you tell me they're not real?" The person is using their conclusion as the basis for itself. As are you.
"Additionally, there is no way to deny the superior Wisdom of Yeshua."
To quote thomas jefferson:
"Among the sayings and discourses imputed to him by his biographers, I find many passages of fine imagination, correct morality, and of the most lovely benevolence: and others again of so much ignorance, so much absurdity, so much untruth, charlatanism, and imposture, as to pronounce it impossible that such contradictions should have proceeded from the same being."
"'There are no coincidences'... I see this... the blinders are off my eyes."
In this context what does that even mean?
"God and the Holy Spirit... even if it is as you describe, the One who lives in me, so to you it would seem that I am only talking to myself... speaks to me when I am still and open myself to listen."
You admit it's possible god could just be a concept?
"I compare this to the experience of the Buddhist when they reach the 'blue light' awareness... that connection to the higher self... the higher Being. I know of others who understand this, as they have experienced it. I accept that you have not, and will not, because you do not seek it. I accept that you do not believe. The Lord has said, 'I know those who are Mine, and they know Me'. I know Him. Peace and blessings to you."
I don't know if I've experienced what you've experienced (because you haven't really described it), but I am in touch with many parts of my inner-self and sensitive to much buddhist and other spiritual philosophy, and when evangelicals talk about how grace etc feels I usually want to say "yeah I know what you mean". I strongly suspect I feel the same things and experience the same experiences - I just don't make the same assumptions or see them through the same lens as religious people.
@agnophilo - Hi again. You say circular reasoning, I would have to say again; 'I know those who are Mine, and they know Me'.
Regarding God as a concept; I believe that God is the energy that created, and creates, everything. He is in everything, and He is everything. Nothing could exist without Him, or El, or it(fem./masc. neutral)... I AM. There is also a negative energy(dark matter) that opposes the Creator and the creation.
By 'there are no coincidences', I mean that God has revealed the ways in which He moves in the world... I see how He moves in my life, and in others... I am aware of Him when He is trying to re-direct things or when He wants me to see something.
"I just don't make the same assumptions or see them through the same lens as religious people." Yes, I know. You place all your confidence in yourself, rather than in a higher Being, a Creator, as most people do. I understand this. This is what I meant in my post; "It would be so easy to let go of God, most of the world has, they just don't even realize that they have...."
I used to have pride of ego also, belief that accomplishments in my life were mine alone. Wisdom of age has shown a clearer picture.
You would put more stock in the words of Thomas Jefferson than in the words of Yeshua? I'm curious, Have you read the words of Yeshua? and/or the Word that is in all the scriptures, to test and approve them?
Peace and blessings to you.
@JstNotherDay - We were having a real discussion but when you start ignoring me and throwing scripture at me that's the end of that.
@agnophilo - Hi agnophilo, That's fine. What's funny though, is there was actually no scripture in my last reply to you. Peace and blessings to you.
Comments (29)
I am sure that without God in my life, I would not be here today.
Hi Lynn, the reason we cannot let go is because God won't let go.
Why is that? (that it's so hard) Just curious.
@Crystalinne - We can't know the path not taken. I imagine if my life had been different there would be some things that are better and some that are worse. Why do you say you wouldn't be here?
@HUMOR_ME_NOW - If I were a more devout believer who had stopped believing that would probably seem pretty insulting.
Actually, all of this is about God, not us. We are tempted to think of God as another human friend instead of the Almighty Sovereign God, though we may think it was our idea alone to come to God in the first place, and therefore could also be our prerogative to walk away. (In fact, I've heard plenty of so-called exChristians say that they've done that very thing. God has a purpose in saving people, a purpose that cannot be thwarted of disposed of by those He calls. To believe in God, we must have a faith and a will to come to Him that we do not possess in our fallen state. When we receive that faith in Christ, the barrier of sin that was there is put on Christ in our behalf and God is then able to create a new creature in Christ - one who can know and have fellowship with God. That new creation does not dissipate or dwindle away. We shall never perish, He affirms.
If we ignore our fellowship with Him and with His children, we can become deadened to His voice (but not dead) and are outwardly out of fellowship. The work that God is doing in us goes on even though we are not active participants (at least not purposely or consciously). Yes that state is terrible for those who have known Him and one may very well feel all alone because there is no real fellowship with the enemies of God either.
I cannot entertain the thought that I would ignore the gifts and calling of God for any period of time. There are great rewards and a direction and purpose throughout life and into eternity for those who trust in Him.
@agnophilo - "Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them." ... He is manifest in me.
@quest4god@revelife - Hi Norm, You seem to have totally gotten the thing that I was trying to say.
(((hugs))) Blessings to you.
Frank is correct too... He[the Lord] has His hold on me.
@JstNotherDay -This problem with comment boxes seems to be everywhere. I am trying to type in the user name of the person(s) I am directing the comment to because of this problem. I'm not sure if this will show up in your feed or not.
Your reply blessed me, not that I didn't already know of your faith, but because your reply is such a precious testimony.
I'm thankful that He never lost His grip on me! I wouldn't be here today if He had. God is faithful.
@quest4god@revelife - When evaluating an idea we must also be careful to evaluate whether it can even be evaluated. Your claims about what "true" faith feels like are subjective, and you cannot know what someone else feels in their heart or how sincerely they believe something. And unless you explain how to objectively detect "true" faith your claim that no one who has it ever loses it cannot be evaluated. If you are deciding that anyone who stops believing never believed to begin with, then you're deciding something is true that is not knowable by anyone but the person you are accusing of being a weak believer.
I've known people who were very genuine and devout and passionate about god and faith and scripture who stopped believing. I don't think they were faking, but that's just my opinion. It's no more verifiable than yours.
Also you might want to google "no true scotsman".
@JstNotherDay - How exactly? If you don't mind me asking. And quest4god@revelife left you a comment but couldn't tag you.
@quest4god@revelife - Clicking "reply" under their comment puts the code in the comment to notify them.
@RaZeHeLL - Why do you say that (that you wouldn't be here today)?
@agnophilo - Hi agnophilo, I don't mind you asking but I can only explain the way that I have explained. Knowing God was made manifest in me and I have been very much aware since I was a young child. Blessings to you friend.
This "comment box not working?" has not been so widespread as it is right now, but I'll try by tagging you here: @agnophilo. I still had do delete all the extraneous material and leave only your username. It is plumb crazy (or is it plum crazy?).
The faith that I speak of which is spoken of in Ephesians 2:8 is not a human-generated faith. In speaking of a faith that a believer cannot lose, it refers to the faith that was given as a gift by God and is no reflection on the character or strength of belief. It is one of those gifts of which the Bible says are without repentance on God's part. He does not take it back nor do we own it as something we can dispose of at will. I am not "putting down" those who no longer feel that they believe or saying that they never really did believe (although that could be a possibility).
Being a believer is making no claim to righteousness of one's own - in fact, it is an admission of the total enmity of one's soul with God apart from His redemption of us in Christ. Anyone who claims otherwise is making a false claim to righteousness or goodness for all have sinned.
The definition of the pertinent terms is God's definition as delineated in the scriptures.
@JstNotherDay - Aware how exactly?
@quest4god@revelife - I've never had any problems tagging people - maybe you're putting your response in the code generated by hitting reply and messing it up? As to "true" faith being a gift from god etc, I don't know how you can know that. I don't know how you could know something you feel inside of you came from god, let alone know anything about what other people feel or where it comes from. As for emnity to your soul, this sounds like you are carving your inner self into two halves, the parts you see as bad and the parts you see as good and calling the bad parts you and the good parts god. Everyone has an inner tug of war and has different parts inside of themselves competing for our actions, it's how the mind works. Not everyone personifies those parts or calls them god, the devil etc. Ironically secular people make the same error when they take the noblest and best parts of ourselves and call that our humanity and call the rest inhuman. All of it is a part of our nature, good and bad. The part of our mind we seem to control just acts as referee.
@agnophilo - Greetings agnophilo, All things of the Spirit, come through the Spirit.
@JstNotherDay - That's like saying "by the power of voodoo", it's just words. I wanted to understand what you mean from your perspective, what you perceive as being god manifest in you.
@agnophilo - Hi agnophilo, Let me put it this way, since I know no other way...
Why were you born? Have you ever had this thought? Do you believe in God? Have you pondered where it all came from? Have you sought the answers to why this is all here and how a Creator could have simply existed to create it? Have you pondered these things?
Here again, the comment box doesn't work; so I click on "comment box not working?" The result is that I can type in the comment box, but it isn't in the same font until I click "Submit." The other problem is that it won't let me tag the person I'm addressing. It's not the same on everyone's site. I am attributing this problem to the Xanga problems right now, but it is maddening. You seem not to have that problem here?
@quest4god%40revelife - Hi Norm, I've encountered a few problems but not that one. Some people's sites won't let you edit, or recommend, comments. I've not changed any settings on my site that I know of. I have been getting your messages. Sorry, I meant to tell you that yesterday. Take care and blessings to you, Lynn
@JstNotherDay - "Hi agnophilo, Let me put it this way, since I know no other way..."
Alrighty.
"Why were you born? Have you ever had this thought?"
I don't make the assumption that there's someone or something causing and directing human activity, so my answer would be a mechanical answer - my parents had sex. I could try to list physical events as we understand them going back billions of years that lead to that, but that's the only real answer I can give that I know to be true. A theist looks at life and the universe as artifacts, something built, like a hammer or a screwdriver, and sees it's purpose as coming from the person who built/uses that artifact, the same way a hammer or screwdriver has no purpose on it's own and only has purpose through us. But a hammer or screwdriver is not sentient, it can't love or hate or think or have opinions or beliefs or wonder or act creatively - if it did it wouldn't need us to give it meaning and a purpose. So a theist says "we exist, why did god make us?" An existentialist who does not assume there's a creator and simply tries to understand the world says "we exist, now what? How should we treat each other, what is true, what is the best way to live, the best type of society etc, etc?" You assume there's a creator, I don't.
"Do you believe in God?"
Nope. There could be a god or creator of some kind, but I've never found a compelling reason (logical or empirical) to believe there is.
"Have you pondered where it all came from?"
Of course. I don't have a sound answer though. To my knowledge no one does. There are thousands of claims about it, but that's like claiming a thousand different people killed someone, that doesn't really help much.
"Have you sought the answers to why this is all here and how a Creator could have simply existed to create it? Have you pondered these things?"
Of course. And of course if something's existence implies a creator and something being complex and machine-like implies an intelligent designer, then god needs a god because any god would exist and be complex. So god needs a god, and god's god needs a god and so on into infinity. I cannot accept that answer, can you?
When people didn't understand lightning they believed in zeus and thor and this made them feel like they understood what was going on. Now people don't understand the big bang and abiogenesis and quantum mechanics so they believe in yahweh and allah and vishnu and this makes them feel like they understand what's going on. Have you ever wondered if we're just doing the same thing our ancestors did?
@quest4god@revelife - Unfortunately with xanga's eminent demise it's probably not worth contacting customer support to fix : (
@agnophilo - You may be right. All I can say is that I have this inner knowing. Whether it is real or whether it is false, I can only say that it has always been there for me. Note: It is only recently that I discovered that it is written about in the scriptures. I found that every answer, to every thing, that I ever needed to know, is in the scriptures. It made me ask; 'Where has this been all my life?'.
" Have you ever wondered if we're just doing the same thing our ancestors did?"
My thought when I read this was, "Of course we are". I believe that ever since we were separated from the Creator we have been trying to find our way back... to understand how, and where, we got lost... knowing that we have lost something.
@JstNotherDay - "You may be right. All I can say is that I have this inner knowing. Whether it is real or whether it is false, I can only say that it has always been there for me."
I experienced something similar, but it hasn't always been there. It was put there by your upbringing. It's basic human psychology, as a child you develop the ability to communicate and learn before you develop the ability to think critically, to question things you are told - as a result there's a period when you just blindly accept everything someone tells you, especially your parents. So what you are exposed to in that period of your development gets filed away in the "this is 100% true" folder in the filing cabinet of your mind, so to speak. If you had been exposed to racist beliefs during that period you would "just know" that blacks are lazy or jews are not to be trusted or whatever the prejudice is. And it would be similarly hard to let go of those ideas (if not impossible). This is the psychology of indoctrination. It took me years of questioning for it to even occur to me that there might not be a god, let alone to seriously consider the possibility. People raised in islam have a deep inner knowing that the quran is the word of god. The same is true of every religion. This isn't knowledge, terms like knowledge or fact refer to things that can be verified, proven, demonstrated to others objectively. I know the earth is round, not because I really really think it is, but because I can prove it a number of ways. I can show you it's round via experiment and observation. That is what makes it knowledge. Subjective feelings and beliefs are the opposite of objective knowledge.
"Note: It is only recently that I discovered that it is written about in the scriptures. I found that every answer, to every thing, that I ever needed to know, is in the scriptures. It made me ask; 'Where has this been all my life?'."
You might want to study other religions and philosophies, the teachings of the bible very closely mirror the teachings of many other cultures, and much of the bible appears to have originated from earlier writings. The story of the flood for instance mirrors the epic of gilgamesh which is earlier than the old testament. The golden rule (do to others what you would have them do to you) was stated many times by people who were never exposed to the bible, the earliest written version of it that survives to this day is in the code of hammurabi, a series of ancient babylonian laws pre-dating the earliest books of the old testament by over a thousand years. The code of hammurabi also includes things like "an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth" etc and appears to be a secular template for the ethics that would later make up the old testament. The story of adam and eve very closely mirrors other religions, for instance according to some versions of greek mythology zeus, mightiest of the gods (yahweh is required to be worshiped above all other gods in scripture, he is not said to actually be the only god) created the first woman, pandora, who was given an object containing all the evils of the world and tempted into opening it, thus allowing sin and pain and vice to enter the world. Sound familiar? The bible does contain profound and beautiful passages (and horrible and brutal, primitive passages). But neither seem to me to be out of the ordinary, there is profundity and beauty in most religious texts. It's what draws people to them in the first place. Haven't you ever read a passage that seemed profound or beautiful from another source?
["Have you ever wondered if we're just doing the same thing our ancestors did?"]
"My thought when I read this was, "Of course we are". I believe that ever since we were separated from the Creator we have been trying to find our way back... to understand how, and where, we got lost... knowing that we have lost something."
You are kind of blowing off what I said here. I gave an example of people feeling like they understood something when they had a false idea about it and asked if you have ever thought we might be doing that. I asked "do you think we could be doing X" and you said "of course we're doing Y!"
@agnophilo - Hi agnophilo,
I might agree with you except that I did not receive any serious teaching about God as a child from my parents. To this day my family does not understand my affinity for God.
I have been studying all the other religions and I agree with you, they are all interconnected. However I am not speaking of religion. I am speaking of relationship with God and Holy Spirit. Religion is born out of this need to know our Creator... the inner knowing of which I speak... and inner seeking. "Seek and you shall find", "Knock and the door will be opened"... or in this case the eyes which were once blind will see.
I don't understand that last bit. I agree that 'we are just doing the same thing our ancestors did'.
@JstNotherDay - "Hi agnophilo,
I might agree with you except that I did not receive any serious teaching about God as a child from my parents."
Nor did I. But it still took years to undo. Just being exposed to something strongly biases you toward it and makes it hard to believe anything different. Do you think racist people are given daily stereotype drills by their parents? They are generally casually exposed to these concepts, but they usually stay with them for a lifetime as a result. Especially if they use those ideas to meet other emotional needs, like to feel better about themselves by feeling superior to others etc. Then good luck trying to convince them their beliefs are wrong. It's the same with many religious concepts, once people start using the idea of god to feel loved or safe or allay their fear of death or any of a hundred other things they cling to it and freak out if someone even suggests it's not absolutely true.
"To this day my family does not understand my affinity for God."
You were exposed to it as a kid though, right?
"I have been studying all the other religions and I agree with you, they are all interconnected."
Many cultures have blended together and influenced each other but elements like the golden rule are universal I think not because x religion has influenced y religion, but because of the commonality in human nature. It's just a common sense conclusion that people have reached over and over and over again.
"However I am not speaking of religion. I am speaking of relationship with God and Holy Spirit."
You think that's somehow unique to your religion? Hinduism stresses a personal relationship with their deities, and some sects believe in household gods they feel connected to. Other cultures engage in ancestor worship and feel they get messages or guidance from the spirits of their ancestors. My theory is that all of these people are just personifying some aspect or aspects of their unconscious mind. If you poke around in your inner self you will find many parts of you that think and feel different ways - some of them you feel in control of, some of them feel like something else is in control. We call this the unconscious mind and today we study it as a phenomenon - but if you believe in a devil that tempts people and demons that make people violent, spirits that give people guidance or a god that does all kinds of things, the mind is a veritable smorgasbord of things to point to and call a separate being. This is made more defensible by the fact that neurology is one of the last great frontiers in terrestrial science so claims about subjective feelings are hard to objectively debunk. But you can actually induce "spiritual" experiences medically now, both chemically and by influencing the brain with EM fields. I can elaborate if you like.
"Religion is born out of this need to know our Creator... the inner knowing of which I speak... and inner seeking. "Seek and you shall find", "Knock and the door will be opened"... or in this case the eyes which were once blind will see."
I think religion is born out of a lot of things - a desire to control people, a desire to understand the world, a need for a sense of security, need to feel loved etc. I don't feel a need to connect to a creator at all, any more than you feel the need to connect to bigfoot. I feel a need to connect, but that's the herd instinct. We don't feel complete unless we're part of a group, probably the same way a fish doesn't feel good out of it's school or a bird out of it's flock. And the same way our basic survival instincts can be triggered by abstract ideas (ie we can be afraid of something abstract like global warming or communism, not just animals with pointy teeth) we can similarly feel profound emotions from things like fictional stories, art, music, philosophy and beliefs. As sam harris pointed out if you believe your child has been abducted you will feel the torrent of emotion that will unleash, even if it turns out not to be true. The belief, the perception, unleashes the feelings associated with it. The belief does not have to be accurate to do so. So people can feel profound things about god and still just be talking to themselves.
"I agree that 'we are just doing the same thing our ancestors did'."
Believing a wrong thing that gives us no new information out of ignorance?
@agnophilo - Hi agnophilo, Unlike you, I don't believe that we are "believing a wrong thing", but rather that we are seeking to solve a great mystery... a puzzle to which we do not hold all the pieces so we can't see the whole picture. I have faith. I believe. I feel it in my heart and in my soul. There are things in my nature... in the way God formed me and made me... I am His. There are also events in my life which have heightened my awareness of the Lord. Yes, He lives in me.
Additionally, there is no way to deny the superior Wisdom of Yeshua.
'There are no coincidences'... I see this... the blinders are off my eyes. God and the Holy Spirit... even if it is as you describe, the One who lives in me, so to you it would seem that I am only talking to myself... speaks to me when I am still and open myself to listen. I compare this to the experience of the Buddhist when they reach the 'blue light' awareness... that connection to the higher self... the higher Being. I know of others who understand this, as they have experienced it. I accept that you have not, and will not, because you do not seek it. I accept that you do not believe. The Lord has said, 'I know those who are Mine, and they know Me'. I know Him. Peace and blessings to you.
@JstNotherDay - "Hi agnophilo, Unlike you, I don't believe that we are "believing a wrong thing",
You said you did a minute ago, which is why I was confused. You seemed to not want to hear what I was saying.
"but rather that we are seeking to solve a great mystery... a puzzle to which we do not hold all the pieces so we can't see the whole picture."
I too am trying to solve that puzzle - but I refuse to invent the pieces I don't have.
"I have faith. I believe. I feel it in my heart and in my soul. There are things in my nature... in the way God formed me and made me... I am His. There are also events in my life which have heightened my awareness of the Lord."
Circular reasoning. You interpret those events through the lens of the assumption of a personal god and then conclude based on them that there is therefore a personal god. It would be like if I believed that ghosts made people behave violently and when someone asked how do I know this I said "I've seen ghosts influencing people (ie every act of violence they've ever witnessed) all my life, how can you tell me they're not real?" The person is using their conclusion as the basis for itself. As are you.
"Additionally, there is no way to deny the superior Wisdom of Yeshua."
To quote thomas jefferson:
"Among the sayings and discourses imputed to him by his biographers, I find many passages of fine imagination, correct morality, and of the most lovely benevolence: and others again of so much ignorance, so much absurdity, so much untruth, charlatanism, and imposture, as to pronounce it impossible that such contradictions should have proceeded from the same being."
"'There are no coincidences'... I see this... the blinders are off my eyes."
In this context what does that even mean?
"God and the Holy Spirit... even if it is as you describe, the One who lives in me, so to you it would seem that I am only talking to myself... speaks to me when I am still and open myself to listen."
You admit it's possible god could just be a concept?
"I compare this to the experience of the Buddhist when they reach the 'blue light' awareness... that connection to the higher self... the higher Being. I know of others who understand this, as they have experienced it. I accept that you have not, and will not, because you do not seek it. I accept that you do not believe. The Lord has said, 'I know those who are Mine, and they know Me'. I know Him. Peace and blessings to you."
I don't know if I've experienced what you've experienced (because you haven't really described it), but I am in touch with many parts of my inner-self and sensitive to much buddhist and other spiritual philosophy, and when evangelicals talk about how grace etc feels I usually want to say "yeah I know what you mean". I strongly suspect I feel the same things and experience the same experiences - I just don't make the same assumptions or see them through the same lens as religious people.
@agnophilo - Hi again.
You say circular reasoning, I would have to say again;
'I know those who are Mine, and they know Me'.
Regarding God as a concept;
I believe that God is the energy that created, and creates, everything. He is in everything, and He is everything. Nothing could exist without Him, or El, or it(fem./masc. neutral)... I AM. There is also a negative energy(dark matter) that opposes the Creator and the creation.
By 'there are no coincidences', I mean that God has revealed the ways in which He moves in the world... I see how He moves in my life, and in others... I am aware of Him when He is trying to re-direct things or when He wants me to see something.
"I just don't make the same assumptions or see them through the same lens as religious people."
Yes, I know. You place all your confidence in yourself, rather than in a higher Being, a Creator, as most people do. I understand this. This is what I meant in my post;
"It would be so easy to let go of God,
most of the world has,
they just don't even realize that they have...."
I used to have pride of ego also, belief that accomplishments in my life were mine alone. Wisdom of age has shown a clearer picture.
You would put more stock in the words of Thomas Jefferson than in the words of Yeshua? I'm curious, Have you read the words of Yeshua? and/or the Word that is in all the scriptures, to test and approve them?
Peace and blessings to you.
@JstNotherDay - We were having a real discussion but when you start ignoring me and throwing scripture at me that's the end of that.
@agnophilo - Hi agnophilo, That's fine. What's funny though, is there was actually no scripture in my last reply to you. Peace and blessings to you.
@JstNotherDay - Yes, there is.